Road to where? You decide.
Sigh.
Hiatus kononnya. It still stands, by the way. Right after I respond to this ball in my court – last one, I promise. I’ll try to make this as clear as possible, then potter back to wherever I please.
Please read this if you haven’t.
Set? Go.
Firstly, in Susan’s rebuttal to me, there was no mention of Ijok in anywhere. This is strange because I was referring to her proposal of passing up a referendum in Ijok at the first place. And to view all the arguments in this context and temporal dimension is crucial, on two accounts: 1. Ijok’s ultra-sensitive political position. 2. All-Blogs is in its infancy, it is less than 1 month-old and has not even been registered. Its constitution is not ready; membership issues are still being thrashed out. To an extent, it is still but a figment of our imaginations, each person imagining his/her own version of what All-Blogs should be. Like a friend was telling me - blind men and the elephant.
Secondly, it is apparent that we have different targets in mind when we talk about the blogosphere. This I have to set right, because arguing with two different sets of assumptions is just wasting everybody’s time. To me, the Malaysian blogosphere composes of EVERY single blogger. Those who blog about their cats, their cars, what they had for lunch, how Phuket is the best place on earth and etc. Private, public. Real name, pseudonym. 80yearolds, 10yearolds. EVERYBODY. Sociopolitical bloggers should not be so presumptuous as to believe that they are the only segment of the blogosphere who matter.
I had been observing other segments of the blogosphere when the Bloggers United movement broke out. Based on my observations, many other bloggers simply do not share the indignant feelings of this part of the blogosphere. They don’t care. *gasps from the audience* They don’t. So from that point of view, I’d say that basing All-Blogs on the Bloggers United framework would limit it to precisely the 300 people who put up the badge. But All-Blogs could be so much more!
Thirdly, I am not proposing that bloggers under All-Blogs tone down to appease the government. We have to be clear here, that All-Blogs is an entity separate from its members. Its members can do whatever they like, but NOT under the name of All-Blogs. For example, Rocky can go to Ijok and blog about it, but he may not blog that “All-Blogs went to Ijok today”, unless it was passed by an All-Blogs meeting. The members can have all kinds of ideologies and inclinations, but the umbrella of All-Blogs must be neutral. Also, All-Blogs should not impose any rules on its bloggers except some general non-binding pledge, like I had previously mentioned here.
You mentioned that All-Blogs must take a stand to educate and engage the government. Well, my stand is that we should keep our eyes on the macro objectives of freedom of expression and freedom of information (elaborated here), and I don’t believe that going to Ijok, demanding for freedom for bloggers is a strategic move to lead us towards that direction. I beg to differ about the government not needing education on blogging, and I don’t think they need any more persuasion that bloggers are serious about their freedom to blog. How do you intend to educate and engage the government when you push it further to confirm its suspicions of ALL bloggers being anti-establishment and hence must be exterminated at all costs? And how is that fair to other bloggers who don’t share your cause?
You flatter me when saying that my thoughts represent the future generation of Malaysia, Susan. However it would be utterly insolent if I were to accept that as I can see many other youths from diverse backgrounds working together towards a better Malaysia, which would hopefully be brighter than the somber projection that you painted.
And this is my last word on the subject. I’ll be enjoying my hiatus avoiding leeches in FRIM, and you guys can have fun in my comment box while I’m away.
p/s. My other musings of All-Blogs can be found here, here and the infamous here.
p/p/s. It is Jun-E, J-U-N with a dash, E. *slaps forehead*
Hiatus kononnya. It still stands, by the way. Right after I respond to this ball in my court – last one, I promise. I’ll try to make this as clear as possible, then potter back to wherever I please.
Please read this if you haven’t.
Set? Go.
Firstly, in Susan’s rebuttal to me, there was no mention of Ijok in anywhere. This is strange because I was referring to her proposal of passing up a referendum in Ijok at the first place. And to view all the arguments in this context and temporal dimension is crucial, on two accounts: 1. Ijok’s ultra-sensitive political position. 2. All-Blogs is in its infancy, it is less than 1 month-old and has not even been registered. Its constitution is not ready; membership issues are still being thrashed out. To an extent, it is still but a figment of our imaginations, each person imagining his/her own version of what All-Blogs should be. Like a friend was telling me - blind men and the elephant.
Secondly, it is apparent that we have different targets in mind when we talk about the blogosphere. This I have to set right, because arguing with two different sets of assumptions is just wasting everybody’s time. To me, the Malaysian blogosphere composes of EVERY single blogger. Those who blog about their cats, their cars, what they had for lunch, how Phuket is the best place on earth and etc. Private, public. Real name, pseudonym. 80yearolds, 10yearolds. EVERYBODY. Sociopolitical bloggers should not be so presumptuous as to believe that they are the only segment of the blogosphere who matter.
I had been observing other segments of the blogosphere when the Bloggers United movement broke out. Based on my observations, many other bloggers simply do not share the indignant feelings of this part of the blogosphere. They don’t care. *gasps from the audience* They don’t. So from that point of view, I’d say that basing All-Blogs on the Bloggers United framework would limit it to precisely the 300 people who put up the badge. But All-Blogs could be so much more!
Thirdly, I am not proposing that bloggers under All-Blogs tone down to appease the government. We have to be clear here, that All-Blogs is an entity separate from its members. Its members can do whatever they like, but NOT under the name of All-Blogs. For example, Rocky can go to Ijok and blog about it, but he may not blog that “All-Blogs went to Ijok today”, unless it was passed by an All-Blogs meeting. The members can have all kinds of ideologies and inclinations, but the umbrella of All-Blogs must be neutral. Also, All-Blogs should not impose any rules on its bloggers except some general non-binding pledge, like I had previously mentioned here.
You mentioned that All-Blogs must take a stand to educate and engage the government. Well, my stand is that we should keep our eyes on the macro objectives of freedom of expression and freedom of information (elaborated here), and I don’t believe that going to Ijok, demanding for freedom for bloggers is a strategic move to lead us towards that direction. I beg to differ about the government not needing education on blogging, and I don’t think they need any more persuasion that bloggers are serious about their freedom to blog. How do you intend to educate and engage the government when you push it further to confirm its suspicions of ALL bloggers being anti-establishment and hence must be exterminated at all costs? And how is that fair to other bloggers who don’t share your cause?
You flatter me when saying that my thoughts represent the future generation of Malaysia, Susan. However it would be utterly insolent if I were to accept that as I can see many other youths from diverse backgrounds working together towards a better Malaysia, which would hopefully be brighter than the somber projection that you painted.
And this is my last word on the subject. I’ll be enjoying my hiatus avoiding leeches in FRIM, and you guys can have fun in my comment box while I’m away.
p/s. My other musings of All-Blogs can be found here, here and the infamous here.
p/p/s. It is Jun-E, J-U-N with a dash, E. *slaps forehead*
Labels: All-Blogs, conversations, other blogs
This entry was posted
on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 at 7:24 pm.
You can skip to the end and leave a response.
Hi Jun-E;
Terribly sorry for giving you added misery during your PMS. I don't mean to. Really happy you are responding intelligently like you always do, PMS or not :-)
I did'nt mention Ijok because Ijok was just an example I cited for campaign activities for All-Blogs. Today it is Ijok, tomorrow it could be anything from World Press Freedom Day or the General Elections. Also, I can understand why you don't want All-Blogs to go to Ijok. I won't question that. I accept your explanation and agree to differ. It was your logic, your attempt at rationalising it that I question. Hence, all my rebuttal.
You said "Sociopolitical bloggers should not be so presumptuous as to believe that they are the only segment of the blogosphere who matter".
It is wrong to assume that SOPO bloggers do this. Most of us, don't. We realise the diversity of bloggers out there. But you must realise those who support All-blogs are not only SOPO bloggers. Therefore, it is also wrong to assume that non-SOPO bloggers are a-political. Most of them may not blog about politics, but they do have a political stand. One example,is during the Tengku Adnan-Bloggers are liars fiasco. Many young and non-SOPO bloggers actually came out to say: now I would like to say something political because I can't stand what TA said.
You said: "All-Blogs could be so much more!" -- How? By trying to limit those who want to participate actively in the political process? Well, see it also from the perspective of those who want to be more pro-active.
All-blogs must not differ from its origin, if it wants to remain credible and a strong association. it must not take the convenient route now, simply because it wants registration with the ROS.
It must have a stand and not be wishy-washy. Those who believe and accept All-blogs will remain, those who don't, we can't help but let them go. We can't please everyone, life is just not like that. There is a saying for those who want to please everyone, and I don't mean to say it rudely or impolitely, but they are said to have "no balls".
You said: "The members can have all kinds of ideologies and inclinations, but the umbrella of All-Blogs must be neutral".
Again I ask you: neutral to what? Because believing in democracy or anti-corruption or peace, etc is also an ideology, is also an inclination. Do you mean "neutral" as in believe in nothing? Can All-blogs be totally neutral? I am not old yet, but I believe it can't be.
You said: "How do you intend to educate and engage the government when you push it further to confirm its suspicions of ALL bloggers being anti-establishment and hence must be exterminated at all costs? And how is that fair to other bloggers who don’t share your cause?"
By this you mean we should remain quiet and subdued about the wrong-doings of the government, because that would certainly make our ministers very happy and will not be suspicious anymore?
Jun-E, you have to choose your path. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Based on its self-interest, any power will choose to engage or disengage with you as it pleases, because it calls the shot. Do you want to be a government tool? To be exploited according to its whims and fancies, only to be incarcerated for speaking your mind or disagreeing with it. Suspicious or not, I'd rather choose a clear and determined path. Time will tell, and history will judge. Do not also pre-judge about other bloggers out there - alot of them want to be represented or at least want to be associated with an alliance that is clear, brave and committed in its cause.
Jun-E, every voice of youth, is a voice for the future, including yours. Forgive me if I sound pessimistic, but there is simply nothing much to convince me to be otherwise.
Enjoy your hiatus. Thanks for your thoughts and again don't let me spoil you days. And don't let others make you think this is a war, it isn't but simply an exchange of thoughts, which I really appreciate.
If at all, you and I have proven that women of different ages and background (you the academic and me the activist) can discuss openly without hating each other...hahaha!
Take care, dear.
Jun-E,
Susan still cannot fathom your further explanation on All-Blogs.
I guess she's so experienced and battle-hardened on certain issues that other options are unthinkable or unworthy of mention.
You were spot on about her second posting not including 'Ijok' as context but perhaps, it is subtext that Susan wishes to impart on her readers with emphasis on All-Blogs.
Apolitical, neutral, etc. Does Susan appear impartial on her take(s) about Malaysian issues or All-Blogs, for that matter?
I don't think so.
Anyway, BUM'07 is forthcoming on 19th May. Good time to 'engage and embrace' other peoples' ideas for All-Blogs, don't you think.
shar,
i never claimed to be neutral and a-political - no one can be and all-blogs cannot also pretend to be.
and i also wish my points would be refuted, without draging in my background, my experience, or anything personal.
Jun-E and Susan are just two different parts of the spectrum. And that is what being Malaysians is all about. Rainbow. Either methodology, let works toward an even brighter future for Malaysia. v9
Remember everyone, that even in a debating contest, the judges decide the winning ideology/team. Susan has one set of opinions, Jun-E has a different set, and while the debate may be endless, each quoting the other person and challenging their statements, at the end of the day, it boils down to what majority bloggers think.
Ijok I feel is too early days for AllBlogs to carry out Susan's suggestion. But come latter days, when AllBlogs has become a proper registered entity, has it proper committee (not an interim one), has its own website/blogsite which ideally would have reached 100000 views (or a substantial number agreed by the committee), then it would perhaps be feasible to bring this debate back into the forefront, and allow supporters of AllBlogs (eg those who contribute to the 100000 page view stats, or those who register themselves openly/anonymously under AllBlogs etc) to cast their VOTE online?
At the end of the day, it is not a matter of who wins/loses, it is just a matter of whose arguments hold the best persuasive power. Neither argument is right or wrong. =)
Good debate thus far anyway. But I feel perhaps it is time to move on to other issues for now, issues that hold bigger priorities, such as how to reach out to non-sociopolitical bloggers to persuade them that AllBlogs are on their side too! Or issues like how on earth do we get them 100000 pages views =). Perhaps just an AllBlogs campaign on its own without having to be linked to Ijok or any other politically charged by-election? Perhaps setting up a National AllBlogs day filled with fun and exciting blogging activities?
Dear Jun-E, you are crystal clear when you say that All-Blogs should be separate from all its bloggers but alas this point is not being picked up by everyone, including Ms Loone. I for one agree with you that while members of All-Blogs should follow their individual conscience and beliefs, even if it means blogging without political-correctness, they should not force other members, if only by association, into endorsing these individualities. My brother can date whomever he wants, but I don't have to like his girlfriend sort of thing. However, this is the trouble with democracy in that the squeeky wheel gets the oil.
Jun-E I am sure there are multitudes of bloggers who believe as you do, especially people who blog about ordinary things like cats and catamarans. The trouble with that is these people are by nature are part of the silent majority.
Peace, woman.
I think what June-E is saying is that All-Blog don't play a role in any blogger's, or group of blogger's agenda. If any blogger or groups of bloggers, wish to cover any events, it's their rights to do so. Go ahead.
All-Blog is just a club or platform that bloggers get together to exchange ideas or gathering. More like a social club. I personally don't see it hard to understand that ... :)
It's clear enough to me what Jun-E is saying, and bloody intelligently too at that. It's Ms Sloone, i fear, who cannot, will not, stare the thing in the face.
And what is so personal about Shar101's comments?
MissTee
I think (everybody's got an opinion eh?) that going to Ijok under the banner of All-Blogs, is suicide. I agree by right, the organisation should be apolitical until an issue affects us and we make a stand and fight to the death etc etc. We take a stand when the issue affects us and our collective interests/believes. Consensus is key.
We haven't even sorted out our membership yet and we don't know who we actually represent. I refrain to speak for others without asking beforehand because that's only courteous. I only dare speak for myself.
All else, if whoever wants to go to Ijok, do it in their own capacity. I don't want BigDog or A Voice who are big Umno supporters to say 'All-Blogs went to Ijok and we think PKR is dirty' because I may be in the committee, I don't want people speaking for me without consulting me first. And PKR is not dirty! lol.
I'm going to Ijok for work and my findings of the place will not represent the view of my media org in any way whatsoever. Plain and simple. Disassociation is needed for the greater good because people underestimate the power of peace sometimes and the greater responsibility in not exerting pressure over others for no good reason.
Debate on!
(you're lucky ppl nvr call you back stabber all wei ...) *tee hee*
politikus:
I don't have "exuberant" energy.
You represent my Voice todie!:)
Owe you two goblets of tehtarik, one laced with...Nah mind/e:(
Susan says it best in her first comment. I would like to echo most of her sentiments.
Most bloggers consider the 'stand back and stay neutral' approach as mature. I personally think it's naive.
I feel it is very easy to slowly slide into non-action when you consider the issue of "calming the government down" and being neutral.
We Malaysians tend to be very non-confrontational and while in terms of tolerance, that is good, but when it comes to efficiency, we lose out.
Tone Down Or Not?
Crankshaft,
Please re-read Susan's 1st posting "All-Blogs must go to Ijok".
Personally, I'm in agreement with her upto the third para. It's the 4th and 5th para that bothers me because her proposal could then be construed as All-Blogs being confrontational to both political factions. Seriously, can we hope for any understanding and acceptance under the current 'hot' circumstances in Ijok?
Even meeting the ordinary folks in Ijok to 'inform' them about All-Blogs is premature because if the following questions were asked, what could the bloggers reply:
a)All-Blogs? What is that? A society, group of concerned citizens, etc. Do you have a website?
b)Who are your members? How do I join? Where? Must pay ah?
c)What do you stand for? (Heck, our constitution is still in the works).
d)Are you pro or anti-government?
Let's not be naive. The politicians of both sides will definitely use All-Blogs to further their own agenda and we would have shot our collective feet before the first posting can get published (which we can't do anyway because we don't have a website).
The debate, in essence, continues but not in Ijok.
Neutral talk.
Both are right in their own way.
Lets ask ourself these questions:
All-Blogs was born under what circumstances and the reasons for it to be formed?
Will it be formed if there are no law suits against bloggers?
All-Blogs were formed to protect freedom of speech and if the Malaysian Gomen cannot take it, they will try to enforce laws to curtail bloggers.
Now bloggers here means those that are leaning more towards the political sense.
Assuming these type of bloggers are non existence, no bloggers write about or expose the wrong doing of the gomen, there will be no raising about laws to curtail bloggers, if the existing bloggers just write about their hobbies, cars, personal, travel and others non political topics.
So to me All-Blogs was not meant for non political bloggers, why do they need it, the gomen is not going after them. But the call for support for All-Blogs attracted all kind of bloggers and now it becomes an ambiguity as to its original intention.
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